Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

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Outof
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Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by Outof » Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:14 pm

My relationship to MIDI is that I usually get it to work as communication between my synths and computer (I/O), and that's really it. It simply works every time I turn it on. But, I really could wish I understood more, and have tried many times to read a lot without understand much about bits and bytes and more that is to it.

Now I am wondering how I could let my Logic Pro X change the voice banks, not only single voices. Since this is a Yamaha forum, I am trying for example to program my Logic to change Yamaha W7 voice from G-01 (general midi piano), to for example P1-01 voice. I mean, the voice could be anything as long as it was possible to change to different banks.

I really love to reuse my dusted W7 or EX5 synths, but I having problems to set it up right. I have most song on discs, and to get it over to my Logic would make it much easier. If you see the screenprint, I have succeeded in making 3 different sound on the 3 first channels (voice 10, 20 and 30) - but unfortunately only with the same GM voices/bank. I use most Internal or Preset voices.
Skjermbilde 2017-04-15 kl. 14.54.19.png

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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by jima » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:27 pm

If the voice selection in your DAW of choice (i.e. Program Change) has no bank parameters then Control Change and/or SysEx messages (if available) are your only option. You will need to be able to construct the correct SysEx or Control string for the appropriate bank change then enter it into the appropriate action or event in order for it to be transmitted to the synth at the appropriate time. I can't speak for the W7 but as an example the EX5 (a very, very fine synth btw) which has four banks (P1/P2/I1/I2) plus a performance bank and needs e.g. for I1 (Internal 1) to have Controller 0 set to 63 (decimal) and controller 32 set to 2. A copy of the data list for the synths will be very helpful as it contains all of the necessary Control and SysEx strings the synth will support.

Be aware that with some synths the bank change will not be activated until a program change is received so it is usual to then send a default program change to Program 1 or to the desired program/patch/voice when you send the bank change string. For this reason also, as bank changes takes time which can be significant in a song you must allow for this if you want to change patches on the fly.

My normal modus operandi is to allow one silent bar at the beginning of a song (two if there are many Control or SysEx messages to send) to take care of all of the synth control traffic. If I can't avoid a bank change on the fly during a song, I plan it to happen during a bar when other synths are active and there are no note messages for the EX5. I may also set the volume to zero before changing then restore it later or wait for a two bar gap especially if changing from a voice with a long release on a high energy high tempo track.

Ironically, as a defector from Sonar (and Windows 10, now a very happy iMac user) I considered Logic Pro X as a possible replacement but was unable to confirm these sort of capabilities (and of course there was no demo) so chose Reaper64 instead. I and perhaps others would be very interested in how you get on if you care to post your experiences here. Regrettably, Sonar has quite good SysEx messaging capabilities which I initially missed but I am not now feeling deprived with Reaper.

I don't know about the W7 but the EX5 Data List was available from the premier site for EX5 etc. which is EX5Tech. The site is offline for downloads at the moment as there has been a major problem with the BBS software and the SysOp has a crushing personal workload but is nevertheless committed to resolving the issue. Fortunately, Yamaha keep legacy product manuals available online, bless them, this link https://uk.yamaha.com/en/support/manual ... tion&k=EX5 may help.
Jim
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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by SeaGtGruff » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:32 pm

I know nothing about Logic Pro, but the Bank Select messages are Controller Change messages, so you might check what's available with the "Controller" button.

On the other hand, a Bank number is made up of two values, the MSB (most significant byte) and LSB (least significant byte). I'm wondering what the "L" and "M" columns are?
Michael Rideout
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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by parametric » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:45 pm

Hi there Outof . . . and welcome to the forums . . . .

I see you have already had some situation-specific hints from SeaGoat and jima . . .

As has been said - Yamaha are particularly good at documenting the Midi data format of their devices, so once you are familiar with the syntax and where to insert it, it should as you say - just work . . .

It may be useful to look at instrument definition files for your devices. They may be available for Logic (or can be made) and these will allow bank/voice selection in the DAW - with the correct names that you are used to seeing . . . .

If you're wanting more of a "Primer" on the mysteries of SySex and other midi matters DO check out John's Midi Tutorial Site:

http://midi-tutor.proboards.com/

His Tutorials are excellently well put together and explain things very well . . .

He is a member here also - so may just happen by . . .

Best Regards

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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by jima » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:17 am

Yes, I would imagine SeaGoat is right, if you hit the Controller tab and set Num to 0 and Val to 63 then the next event Num to 32 and Val to (e.g.) 2 using correct channel and sensible positions an EX5 bank change will be set up. Follow it with a Program Change to implement it. Your documentation will surely help.
Jim
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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by SeaGtGruff » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:16 am

I've just downloaded the PDF copy of the Logic Pro X User Guide and searched for "bank." You will want to read the following pages for relevant information:

73
183
418
525
776
779 - 780
784
806 - 808

Note that in the screenshot you posted, the Bank Select values are given in the "Num" column, and the Program Change values are in the "Val" column, so the three voices you chose were in Bank number 3-- that is, the MSB is 0 and the LSB is 3-- which is the XG "Stereo" bank. The programs are 9, 19, and 29, which don't have any corresponding voices in the "Stereo" bank, therefore the XG-compatible instrument fell back on the equivalent programs in bank 0, which is the XG "Capital Tone Voices" bank-- also known as the GM bank.
Michael Rideout
Yamaha PSR-E433, PSR-E443, YPT-400

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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by Sonus » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:21 pm

Image
W7 “Technical Information” p.40

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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by Outof » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:52 pm

Sonus wrote:Image
W7 “Technical Information” p.40
So many great answers. I am really trying to dig into it. I just wanted to post a screenprint how far I have got in my DAW (Logic Pro X). After hours of reading I have get this close: This should be the place where I should make the right changes. Can someone point out where I go from this? I have (funny enough), all the manuals, data list and so on from the great year 1994, so it easy to look up. I have a little more problem understand the content thow. But now I also think that what's needed is loaded into the forum also?

Anyway, here is something that makes me believe that I am pretty close now, but I think I will need some parameters "between the lines?":
Skjermbilde 2017-04-18 kl. 16.38.18.png
I might use the EX5 instead for learning this, but I guess it is almost the same with W7..!?

Not easy to see, so I try this print screen instead:
ScreenX.png
ScreenX.png (71.8 KiB) Viewed 632 times
Last edited by Outof on Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by Outof » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:57 pm

SeaGtGruff wrote:I've just downloaded the PDF copy of the Logic Pro X User Guide and searched for "bank." You will want to read the following pages for relevant information:

73
183
418
525
776
779 - 780
784
806 - 808

Note that in the screenshot you posted, the Bank Select values are given in the "Num" column, and the Program Change values are in the "Val" column, so the three voices you chose were in Bank number 3-- that is, the MSB is 0 and the LSB is 3-- which is the XG "Stereo" bank. The programs are 9, 19, and 29, which don't have any corresponding voices in the "Stereo" bank, therefore the XG-compatible instrument fell back on the equivalent programs in bank 0, which is the XG "Capital Tone Voices" bank-- also known as the GM bank.
Thanks. Could it be we have the same manual? I have one downloaded one with this text at page 2: "Copyright © 2009 Apple Inc. All rights reserved" (1342 pages).

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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by Sonus » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:35 pm

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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by Outof » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:50 pm

SeaGtGruff wrote:I've just downloaded the PDF copy of the Logic Pro X User Guide and searched for "bank." You will want to read the following pages for relevant information:

73
183
418
525
776
779 - 780
784
806 - 808

Note that in the screenshot you posted, the Bank Select values are given in the "Num" column, and the Program Change values are in the "Val" column, so the three voices you chose were in Bank number 3-- that is, the MSB is 0 and the LSB is 3-- which is the XG "Stereo" bank. The programs are 9, 19, and 29, which don't have any corresponding voices in the "Stereo" bank, therefore the XG-compatible instrument fell back on the equivalent programs in bank 0, which is the XG "Capital Tone Voices" bank-- also known as the GM bank.
This is interesting. Does it mean that I can do all the bank and voice changes in this window alone? Because further down I am working with creating a multi instrument, define custom bank messages and then config messages. Similar to this Event list, but still not the same. I guess they have advantages and disadvantages. As I remember my W7 got these banks (Version 2): I - S - G - P1 - P2 - P3. Could you please give an example, based on the first picture I upload (Event window) what I could write for switching between these banks?

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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by SeaGtGruff » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:03 am

Outof wrote:
SeaGtGruff wrote:I've just downloaded the PDF copy of the Logic Pro X User Guide and searched for "bank." You will want to read the following pages for relevant information:

73
183
418
525
776
779 - 780
784
806 - 808

Note that in the screenshot you posted, the Bank Select values are given in the "Num" column, and the Program Change values are in the "Val" column, so the three voices you chose were in Bank number 3-- that is, the MSB is 0 and the LSB is 3-- which is the XG "Stereo" bank. The programs are 9, 19, and 29, which don't have any corresponding voices in the "Stereo" bank, therefore the XG-compatible instrument fell back on the equivalent programs in bank 0, which is the XG "Capital Tone Voices" bank-- also known as the GM bank.
Thanks. Could it be we have the same manual? I have one downloaded one with this text at page 2: "Copyright © 2009 Apple Inc. All rights reserved" (1342 pages).
The document I'm looking is titled Logic Pro X User Guide For OS X, with filename "logic_pro_x_user_guide.pdf" and copyright 2013 by Apple Inc. It has 919 pages. If you have a different version, you can just search inside it for the word "bank" to see what you come up with.
Michael Rideout
Yamaha PSR-E433, PSR-E443, YPT-400

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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by SeaGtGruff » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:12 am

Outof wrote:
SeaGtGruff wrote:I've just downloaded the PDF copy of the Logic Pro X User Guide and searched for "bank." You will want to read the following pages for relevant information:

73
183
418
525
776
779 - 780
784
806 - 808

Note that in the screenshot you posted, the Bank Select values are given in the "Num" column, and the Program Change values are in the "Val" column, so the three voices you chose were in Bank number 3-- that is, the MSB is 0 and the LSB is 3-- which is the XG "Stereo" bank. The programs are 9, 19, and 29, which don't have any corresponding voices in the "Stereo" bank, therefore the XG-compatible instrument fell back on the equivalent programs in bank 0, which is the XG "Capital Tone Voices" bank-- also known as the GM bank.
This is interesting. Does it mean that I can do all the bank and voice changes in this window alone? Because further down I am working with creating a multi instrument, define custom bank messages and then config messages. Similar to this Event list, but still not the same. I guess they have advantages and disadvantages. As I remember my W7 got these banks (Version 2): I - S - G - P1 - P2 - P3. Could you please give an example, based on the first picture I upload (Event window) what I could write for switching between these banks?
According to the version of the User Guide that I'm looking at-- or rather, by my interpretation of what it says-- that "Num" column shows the Bank Select LSB, and the User Guide says something about defining custom bank messages if your synth doesn't use Controller 32 (Bank Select LSB) for selecting banks, which suggests to me that the screen you're looking at assumes a Bank Select MSB of 0.

I don't know about the W7 Version 2 or the EX5. I've just now downloaded the French, German, and Spanish Owners Manual for the W5/W7, but I don't read French or German or Spanish, and the PDF documents are scanned images rather than text and graphics, so there's no way to use the "find" command to search for a particular word or phrase, so I haven't been able to find where the Bank Select MSB and LSB values are listed.
Michael Rideout
Yamaha PSR-E433, PSR-E443, YPT-400

Outof
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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by Outof » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:57 pm

SeaGtGruff wrote:
Outof wrote:
SeaGtGruff wrote:I've just downloaded the PDF copy of the Logic Pro X User Guide and searched for "bank." You will want to read the following pages for relevant information:

73
183
418
525
776
779 - 780
784
806 - 808

Note that in the screenshot you posted, the Bank Select values are given in the "Num" column, and the Program Change values are in the "Val" column, so the three voices you chose were in Bank number 3-- that is, the MSB is 0 and the LSB is 3-- which is the XG "Stereo" bank. The programs are 9, 19, and 29, which don't have any corresponding voices in the "Stereo" bank, therefore the XG-compatible instrument fell back on the equivalent programs in bank 0, which is the XG "Capital Tone Voices" bank-- also known as the GM bank.
This is interesting. Does it mean that I can do all the bank and voice changes in this window alone? Because further down I am working with creating a multi instrument, define custom bank messages and then config messages. Similar to this Event list, but still not the same. I guess they have advantages and disadvantages. As I remember my W7 got these banks (Version 2): I - S - G - P1 - P2 - P3. Could you please give an example, based on the first picture I upload (Event window) what I could write for switching between these banks?
According to the version of the User Guide that I'm looking at-- or rather, by my interpretation of what it says-- that "Num" column shows the Bank Select LSB, and the User Guide says something about defining custom bank messages if your synth doesn't use Controller 32 (Bank Select LSB) for selecting banks, which suggests to me that the screen you're looking at assumes a Bank Select MSB of 0.

I don't know about the W7 Version 2 or the EX5. I've just now downloaded the French, German, and Spanish Owners Manual for the W5/W7, but I don't read French or German or Spanish, and the PDF documents are scanned images rather than text and graphics, so there's no way to use the "find" command to search for a particular word or phrase, so I haven't been able to find where the Bank Select MSB and LSB values are listed.
Thank you. Regarding the manuals they are all downloadable from Yamahas Website at this address (in English):
http://download.yamaha.com/search/resul ... &search=w5

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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by SeaGtGruff » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:05 pm

Outof wrote:Thank you. Regarding the manuals they are all downloadable from Yamahas Website at this address (in English):
http://download.yamaha.com/search/resul ... &search=w5
Huh! Thank you, I've just downloaded them and will take a look. Funny thing, if I change the search from "w5" to "w7"-- which is what I'd searched for last night-- the English versions aren't listed, just the French, German, and Spanish ones! 8O :roll:
Michael Rideout
Yamaha PSR-E433, PSR-E443, YPT-400

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