Begging for ROMS

The Yamaha SY99 is a synthesiser combining frequency modulation synthesis (branded as Advanced FM) and sample-based synthesis (branded as Advanced Wave Memory 2) and the direct successor to Yamaha's SY77/TG77

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ilmenator
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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by ilmenator » Thu May 10, 2012 1:11 pm

synthjoe wrote:Can you help with 4-6-8 layer PCB design and manufacturing to lodge a 88 TFBGA package plus some other components and connectors?
4 layer PCB design and manufacturing yes, the rest probably no. However, I don't think this would be required for the SY99 expansion, so what kind of project do you have in mind?

Edit: oh, you probably want to use those cheapo mobile phone chips you talked about before. Heck, if you can solder them why not?

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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by synthjoe » Thu May 10, 2012 6:32 pm

ilmenator wrote:4 layer PCB design and manufacturing yes...
Might be good enough, I don't know how many layers are needed to reliably/properly route a 88 TFBGA package - my guess would be 3 layers at minimum, but I have no experience with this. Any idea?
ilmenator wrote:Edit: oh, you probably want to use those cheapo mobile phone chips you talked about before. Heck, if you can solder them why not?
Yup! I've got the first couple of dozen in yesterday. Bloody miniature. Soldering will be a pain, but the PCB work for me is just plain unimaginable.

On another token the chip has 8 MB flash, so I'm looking at using the flash rather than the SRAM. Would save battery problems and the whole thing would fit on a single 1x1 cm2 chip, maybe a 2x8 cm2 board. Even the FLASH ROM speed seems to be fast enough, so it looks promising.

Just FYI the total of the differences between the original and the EX ROM content are (address, original byte value on the left, EX on the right):

Code: Select all

0001F00E: 05 0F
000226E6: 58 80
000226EB: 58 80
0003276C: 5C 18
0003276D: 27 E8
0003276E: 79 00
0003E800: FF 5C
0003E801: FF E8
0003E802: FF 30
0003E803: FF 04
0003E804: FF 0B
0003E805: FF 8C
0003E806: FF 18
0003E807: FF 27
0003E808: FF AB
0003E809: FF 04
0003E80A: FF 0B
0003E80B: FF 8C
0003E80C: FF 51
0003E80D: FF 05
0003E80E: FF 52
0003E80F: FF 01
0003E810: FF 53
0003E811: FF 1C
0003E812: FF 5C
0003E813: FF E8
0003E814: FF 40
0003E815: FF 03
0003E816: FF 0B
0003E817: FF 14
0003E818: FF B6
0003E819: FF 51
0003E81A: FF 05
0003E81B: FF 52
0003E81C: FF 02
0003E81D: FF 53
0003E81E: FF 1C
0003E81F: FF 5C
0003E820: FF E8
0003E821: FF 5C
0003E822: FF 03
0003E823: FF 0B
0003E824: FF 14
0003E825: FF B6
0003E826: FF 5C
0003E827: FF 27
0003E828: FF 79
0003E829: FF 19
0003E830: FF 04
0003E831: FF 21
0003E832: FF 01
0003E833: FF 02
0003E840: FF 45
0003E841: FF 78
0003E842: FF 70
0003E843: FF 61
0003E844: FF 6E
0003E845: FF 64
0003E846: FF 65
0003E847: FF 64
0003E848: FF 20
0003E849: FF 53
0003E84A: FF 59
0003E84B: FF 39
0003E84C: FF 39
0003E84D: FF 20
0003E84E: FF 62
0003E84F: FF 79
0003E850: FF 20
0003E851: FF 6D
0003E852: FF 75

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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by ilmenator » Thu May 10, 2012 8:53 pm

synthjoe wrote: On another token the chip has 8 MB flash, so I'm looking at using the flash rather than the SRAM.
You are aware that flash memory usually requires special write routines which the SY will most probably not have implemented? Did you check the datasheet of your memory chips for that?

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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by synthjoe » Fri May 11, 2012 3:41 am

Of course the FLASH write routine is not implemented - but there's plenty room for that! :D
Plus the new code that needs to be written for memory access will hence clearly avoid any issue with Musitronic's intellectual property...
Fortunately (asynchronous) reads work just as normal at 80ns, so it should be good enough to replace the SRAM's without any need to modify the AWM engine. At least that's what I hope...

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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by db7 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:59 pm

Folks, did any more progress ever happen with this or the similar project that was floated in another thread? It’s not very relevant to me as somewhat unfortunately my new SY99 has older ROMs – unless this can work up to 3 MB as a replacement for SYEMBs, or someone found a way to flash the CPU, or Yamaha UK/EU (or even any other regional department, if postable) miraculously have any old chips left… – but I would still fully support it in principle as a user.

Another thing that I seem to recall being mentioned as a possibility somewhere before is the potential for ways to tap into the floppy disk drive bus and fit a higher-capacity/-speed interface (not just a USB emulator, although I’m considering that option); I’d be very interested in info on that, too.

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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by Clyde » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:03 am

I have not heard of any of these projects reaching fruition, thus my mention of wishing for one in another thread recently. The last ROM version I'm aware of is v1.57, a few years ago Yamaha still would provide them for purchase with a 6-8 week delivery time in the US (as apparently they were writing to a ROM per each order and it was done at YamahaJP and then shipped to YamahaUS, then shipped to the purchaser. The SY77 chip set I bought several years ago averaged around $85.00 US per ROM, I don't think they are still doing this service, but I'm not positive. There are some v1.57 data files floating around and if you have access to an EPROM writer you could make one with v 1.57 on it. I really think getting v 1.57 ROM done is the easy part of this process, the real issue is someone finally putting together a working 5mb ROM expansion at reasonable cost and that would work in conjunction with the half mb of factory ram and up to five SYEMB05 boards so you could end up with 8mb total (just like the Musitronics version did). I wanted to purchase a Musitronics expansion for a long time after I first got my SY99, due to budget issues I could not. And when I finally had some cash to spend on it, Musitronics told me they no longer had any and would not be making any more of them. So there have been several threads and interest shown, but due to various issues and/or personal situations, it has never come to a completed project. I'm still hoping that it gets done one of these days, I email Musitronics every few months to see if they have changed their mind and I look for them on eBay, but no solution yet for me.
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DX7IIFD, SY77, SY99, Hammond C3, Steinway L, CP300, AW1600, etc.

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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by db7 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:12 am

Clyde wrote:The last ROM version I'm aware of is v1.57, a few years ago Yamaha still would provide them for purchase with a 6-8 week delivery time in the US (as apparently they were writing to a ROM per each order and it was done at YamahaJP and then shipped to YamahaUS, then shipped to the purchaser. The SY77 chip set I bought several years ago averaged around $85.00 US per ROM, I don't think they are still doing this service, but I'm not positive.
To avoid disappointment, I’m assuming the ROMs are no longer obtainable from Yamaha, but I’ll maybe make some enquiries with them.
There are some v1.57 data files floating around and if you have access to an EPROM writer you could make one with v 1.57 on it.
Thanks; I know about those, but if I’m not mistaken, the problem is that the upgrade to v1.57 also requires new ROM in the CPU and therefore a new chip that has been burned accordingly? And I have never seen anything that suggests that anyone managed to do that.
I really think getting v 1.57 ROM done is the easy part of this process, the real issue is someone finally putting together a working 5mb ROM expansion at reasonable cost and that would work in conjunction with the half mb of factory ram and up to five SYEMB05 boards so you could end up with 8mb total (just like the Musitronics version did).
Are the SYEMBs required to reach the maximum (well, maximum without even larger changes to the internal circuitry and code) capacity of 8 MB; in other words, could 8 MB be made addressable by a single board? I also wonder whether the 5 MB expansion could be used on its own without SYEMBs? If I had suitable ROMs, I would definitely buy such an expansion if I could. In the meantime, I hope to be able to order at least a few SYEMBs from Sector101 soon. Three megabytes should keep me going fairly well, so I’m not too disappointed by the fact that I have an older SY99.
Musitronics told me they no longer had any and would not be making any more of them. So there have been several threads and interest shown, but due to various issues and/or personal situations, it has never come to a completed project. I'm still hoping that it gets done one of these days
Yes, it’s definitely a shame that they no longer sell the RAM or sample expansions. If they did, I’d buy both as soon as I were able to.

Oh well! Hopefully the clever people here will figure something out eventually. I’d certainly be interested in any updates from any of the members who previously discussed the necessary technology, however small.

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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by Clyde » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:42 am

Burning an EPROM with v 1.57 and installing it in place of the old ROM will give you an installed version of 1.57. With the musitronics 5 mb expansion you could have 0-5 SYEMB05 boards installed, you simply set the correct number on the ram expansion board for the number of SYEMB05s you had installed. This link will explain it:
http://musitronics.de/musitronics.org/p ... _ex_e.html

I've certainly been pleased with 3mb in my SY99, but after working with some good piano samples I realize how much better it could be with 8mb.
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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by db7 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:02 am

Clyde wrote:Burning an EPROM with v 1.57 and installing it in place of the old ROM will give you an installed version of 1.57.
Do you mean that the CPU does not need to be upgraded along with the ROM? Was that only for the 1.57EX version used by Musitronics?

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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by Clyde » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:49 am

The upgrade chip set from Yamaha for my SY77 was five ROM chips, I think it was main ROM, sequencer ROM and three other ROMS, change out those five ROMs and your SY77 was upgraded to the latest version available. My SY77 bought in '89/'90 was from the first production run and had something like a v 1.01 ROM set, the upgrade versions were something like v 1.43 and some were labeled SY99 instead of SY77 (I think the sequencer ROM upgrade was marked SY99). Simplified explanation, the CPU is like a small computer dedicated to music, the various ROM chips contain the instruction sets/software/samples, etc. (at least that's how this computer ignorant person understands it!).
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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by db7 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:54 am

Heh, I am aware of the large differences between CPUs and ROMs, but this very thread documents the fact that the Hitachi H8–series CPU used in the SY99 has an internal 32 kB of ROM of its own. This seems to be relevant to the 1.57EX upgrade from Musitronics, at least. As for whether it is necessary for the official upgrades from Yamaha, I will have to go through this thread with a fine-toothed comb later when I don’t have issues with AWM to worry about, but your experience makes it sound as though it may be exclusive to 1.57EX. Thanks anyhow.

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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by Clyde » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:32 am

v1.57 was an official and the last Yamaha upgrade OS for the SY99. The only thing concerning Musitronics is that their RAM EX will NOT work if you OS is any lower than 1.57. If you have say 1.40, their RAM EX will not work on your SY99, if you wanted to install RAM EX and your OS was lower than 1.57 you let them know when ordering and they simply include a 1.57 ROM (I forget if they charged extra for it or not) so it will work on your SY99. You don't need Musitronics RAM EX to install 1.57 but you do need 1.57 to install Musitronics RAM EX.
These are the known Yamaha produced Main ROM versions (accurate to the best of my knowledge):
v1.13 1991-05-28, v1.24 1991-07-09, v1.33 1991-08-21, v1.40 1991-09-25, v1.57 1992-05-12. The known Yamaha produced Sequencer ROM versions (again to the best of my knowledge): v1.10 1991-05-22, v1.20 1991-06-22, v1.30 unknown date. As I said before, upgrading the OS on my SY77 was simply a matter of installing the proper ROMs and I'm certain it is the same on the SY99. My SY99 came with v1.57 Yamaha Main ROM.
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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by db7 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:41 am

Ah, Musitronics, if only that were an option!

Thanks for your reports, then, which suggest that the upgrade to 1.57 does not require any replacement or reprogramming of the CPU. I’ll enquire with Yamaha about what parts they have, both ROMs and generally, out of interest as much as anything else.

If someone does release a RAM expansion beyond 3 MB, I would definitely seriously consider upgrading my ROMs to be able to use that. It’d be great to hear from any of our ‘developers’ here about the possible future of these projects.

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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by Clyde » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:46 pm

And as I said, if Yamaha can't provide them, there are other options.
Clyde
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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by db7 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:00 pm

Of course, I might have to think about burning some EPROMs. :) I’ll study the changelog a bit more to get an idea of whether the upgrade would be worthwhile (at least until someone brings out a >3 MB expansion). Thanks again.

If anyone has upgraded to v1.57 successfully without having to replace their CPU, please post to confirm, as the changelog and other reports online suggest that the CPU has to be replaced along with the program ROM (for this and earlier upgrades, too).

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