sy.factory Problems

Yamaha SY77 is a 16 voice multitimbral music workstation first produced by Yamaha Corporation in 1989. The SY77 is a synthesizer whose architecture combines AFM (Advanced Frequency Modulation) synthesis, AWM2 (Advanced Wave Memory 2) for ROM-borne sample-based synthesis, and the combination of these two methods christened Realtime Convolution and Modulation Synthesis (RCM).

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sy.factory Problems

Unread post by Merkur » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:31 pm

Hello,

I am new to this forum. I just signed in!

I downloaded sy.factory demo in order to test it with my recently purchased TG77 and I am experiencing some problems:
- when asking to load TG77 bank into sy.factory I receive an error message for each voice loaded ("sy.factory Error"): when I click on the "OK" button, it loads the voice, goes to the next and again error message etc.
- once the 64 voices are loaded, when I try to copy or replace a voice the selection works in a very strange and totally unpredictabe way, as is the paste function that basically erase the last voices of the bank. After some copy/paste actions it is even not possible to select whatever!
- impossible to change the window view from tree to table, except for thievery first window opened.
(Communcation test in preferences said connection was ok)

After spending a couple of hours trying to solve that by changing OS, hard disk, unplugging everything but the midi interface and the keyboard, changing the parameters etc. : no success... :?
So I "Googled" for another option but it seems that your software is recommended by many users! Thus it must be working for them...

I have to say that I am not a newbie in that matter as I was a computer programmer in another life and I am working with midi for more than 30 years.
And yes, I downloaded and installed the last version of Java!

My setup :
iMac (27-inch, Late 2012)
3,2 GHz Intel Core i5
OS:
Disk 1) 10.10.5
Disk 2) 10.11.6

Midi interfaces :
Motu micro express
ELEKTRON TM1

Best regards,

Henri

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Re: sy.factory V3.11

Unread post by Derek » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:50 pm

Hi, Henri

And welcome. Sorry to hear you are having problems. You could have sent a query by email to me, but to be fair, I just noticed that I have lost a clear reference to the email address on my site (it is there in a few places, but not obvious), so I need to correct that. my email is registration AT xfactory-librarians.co.uk (put that together).

It is not clear if you are trying to import voices from the TG77 into sy.factory when you get the error, but I assume that to be the case?

Do you get the same problem on both of the MIDI interfaces that you mentioned?

I develop on OS X and have both an SY99 and TG77, so I do know that it works on OS X (I am on 10.12).

You can try running from a terminal using open -a sy.factory to see if any exception messages are being written to the terminal.

If you create a new TG77 SYSEX file (File/New), expand the tree, right click over a voice and select IMPORT, does that work?

Do you have any old legacy MIDI Service Providers in your /Library/Java/Extensions folder? If so please delete them. sy.factory now comes with my OSXMIDI4J service provider built in, but older ones may still be found first and cause a Java exception, which can cause problems with sy.factory

Another thing you could try is to use a 3rd party MIDI tool to capture a manually initiated bulk dump on the TG77 and send that to me so I can check and see if anything in the data is causing problems.

Beyond that, I will need to try and see if I can improve the error logging to get a better idea of what is going on.
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Re: sy.factory V3.11

Unread post by Merkur » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:08 pm

Hi Derek,

Thanks for your quick reaction!
I did not find your address on the website so that is why, when I saw you were a moderator of this forum, I posted this comment.
(Yes : I was importing from the TG77, same problem on both interfaces and both OS)

I will try your suggestions and continue this conversation by email then? Up to you!

Regards,

Henri

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Re: sy.factory V3.11

Unread post by Derek » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:50 pm

Hi, Henri

Either method is fine, but if you need to send me additional info like data/screen shots then email is better. I will split this into a separate topic though at some point rather than an addon to a general announcement. So if you see this info disappear from the announcement, check the forum for a new topic.

I forgot to say about the MIDI service providers (I was in a rush to get to cooking supper!), MMJ was the default SPI for may years, but was stuck on Java 6 and will cause crashes on Java 7 and above. If MMJ or similar is in your /Library/Java/Extensions folder it will be found and used before OSXMIDI4J as built into sy,factory, which can cause problems.

I am not saying it is your problem, but at the least it is something to check and eliminate as a possible cause.

Thanks for confirming that the problem is common across interfaces and OS versions. I will do what I can to work with you to resolve the issue.

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Re: sy.factory V3.11

Unread post by Merkur » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:16 am

Hi Derek,

No MMJ present in /Library/Java/Extensions folder
Tried everything you suggested : the problems are still there.
Tried with 2 different OS (10.10 & 10.11) and interfaces (ELECTRON & MOTU).

Here are some problems I encountered:
Error message when importing voice(s), but voice seems actually imported. I can't send it back to the TG77 as I am using the demo version, but not really want to spend 25€ just to check it!
Copy paste function works a few times, becomes erratic, and then does not work anymore.
Same problem in table or tree view, seems to work a little bit longer in tree view.
Right click copy/paste function work sometimes,but then icon are grayed out, or the icons are ok but then right click actions don't work.
When opening a second file with the new file icon, impossible to copy a voice from one file to the other, thus pretty useless if the application only allows to reorganize a single bank...
Impossible to switch from tree to table view except for the very first file created.
In the window menu, the list of previously opened windows remains, but selecting one of them does nothing...
And the list goes on...

Do you know how many people are actually using this application successfully on a mac?

Regards,

Henri

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Re: sy.factory Problems

Unread post by Derek » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:16 pm

Hi, Henri

Thanks for checking things. It is really hard to figure out what is happening remotely. I have spent 15 minutes running the software tonight, cutting and pasting between files, dragging and dropping voices as well, switching between tree and table view, copying voices between files and can see no issues.

If you wish me to replicate any problems here, I am afraid that you will need to be more specific and give me a specific list of actions to walk through to recreate the problem. I am afraid your comments are along the lines of "it doesn't work" without giving me anything specific to go on. :)

E.g, grab some SY files if you do not already have any (try Here as a good source). Open an SY file. Create a new TG77 SYSEX Bulk Dump file. Try drag and drop or copy and paste data from the SY file to the TG file and tell me what happens, but please give me a specific set of steps with a specific file. We can worry about MIDI import once we are happy with the rest of the functionality.

Did you try running from the command line as I suggested?

In terms of your final question, I have several hundred users, and without going and manually checking computer activations I cannot give you a figure of how many are on OS X, although I know from general correspondence on resolving some other issues (e.g. WaveBlade functionality) that there are at least a few others who use OS X. I can tell you that the number one user on OS X is me :D . As I mentioned above, I develop on OS X, so if it was flaky in general on OS X then I would see it and fix it before release. sy.factory has been in existence for ten years (I got my SY77 in 2007), and has been developed on OS X since 2013 when I made the switch from PC to MAC as my main computer. I also test on PC Windows 10 as well.

As you know, Java allows me to target several platforms, and there is very little little MAC specific code in there. Things like drag and drop, copy/paste and tree and table view make use of general Java APIs. The only Java specific parts are the "Macify" library and the drag and drop event detection (Mouse UP instead of mouse DOWN (or the other way around)( is different between OS X and Windows. OSXMIDI4J is then very MAC specific, but that is a separate library that just happens to be embedded in the package.

That is not to say that there are not problems in the software (no general software can be guaranteed bug free), but I am not seeing the problems you describe.

The last thing I can think of is, if you download and run the old copy of sy,factory on the Archived Products page to see of that behaves any differently - although this will require Apple Java 6 (no longer installed by default) and it will require MMJ to work with Java 6 (OSXMIDI4J is Java 7 upwards).

After that, I am out of ideas.
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Derek Cook

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Re: sy.factory Problems

Unread post by Merkur » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:06 pm

Hi Derek,

Thanks for your answer!
Very strange situation...
Sorry if I my last question sounded a bit rough, but I once bought a editor/librarian for my M1 (yes a long time ago!) in a music store and it happened that it wasn't working and then I realized I was the only person who was actually using it! So I became a beta tester... and the guy who wrote it stepped to my place and I became an unvoluntary beta tester! And then it eventually worked fine!
But in the case of your soft the problem definitely lies in some incompatibilities in my setup.
I will do what you said and make a detailed descriptions of actions.
First I will use a third Mac with another system and I'll report what is happening.

Regards,

Henri

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Re: sy.factory Problems

Unread post by Merkur » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:15 am

Here is a detailed report of a some testing:
OS 10.11.6
Midi interface : ELEKTRON tm1

First test:
1) starting sy.factory with terminal : ok
2) opening a syx file downloaded from the web (baryon.syx) : ok
3) creating a new .syx file : ok
4) Tile horizontal : ok (but only works if you ask twice...)
5) Redimensioning the 2 windows : ok
6) Selecting first voice of baryon.syx : highlighted ok
7) Copying by selecting the "copy" icon : nothing happens, but I assume it goes to the clipboard
8) Selecting the first voice in the new .syx file : highlighted ok, but the previously selected voice in first window stays highlighted, maybe normal to indicate the previously copied voice but a bit odd...
9) The clipboard icon stays grayed out... And past command also...
10) Selecting the second voice in baryon.syx : highlighted ok
11) Copying with ctrl click : ok
12) Selecting & pasting to the second window : not working
13) Behavior now totally erratic...
14) stop test & quit

Second test:
1) starting sy.factory with terminal : ok
2) opening a syx file downloaded from the web (baryon.syx) : ok
3) creating a new .syx file : ok
4) Tiles vertically : ok (works better than the horizontal version : no redimensionning needed)
5) Expanding the voices list in new file : ok
6) Selecting and copying first voice in baryon.syx with control-click: rolling ball accompanying the mouse cursor does not stop, clipboard icon stays gray
7) trying to drag & drop a voice from first to second window : ok!
8) trying gain with another voice : not working,nothing happens
9)trying gain with another voice : not working,nothing happens
10) stop test & quit

When I have the time I will try on another computer...

Regards,

Henri

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Re: sy.factory Problems

Unread post by Derek » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:35 am

Thanks, I will follow the steps when I can and report back. Did you see any error messages in the terminal window when doing any of this (the reason for running it from the terminal)?
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Re: sy.factory Problems

Unread post by Merkur » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:15 am

Hi Derek,

No error messages in the terminal window.

I just made another try :

1) Installing Java RE update 131
2) Running the java test in safari : ok
3) Downloading & reinstalling sy.factory : ok
4) Running sy.factory and checking communication with TG77 : ok
5) Creating a new TG77 Bulk Dump SYX file : a new window opens with only a line of text "TG77 Internal Memory Sysex File"
6) Trying to change view (table, tree) : nothing happens
7) Trying to import voices from TG77 : nothing happens
8) Closing the window : ok
9) Opening an external SY77 file : ok, new windows open with tree view
10) Selecting & copying the first voice : ok (clipboard icon activated)
11) Pasting : only working on a voice with same structure ( Is that the way it is supposed to work? A bit odd...)
12) deleting last voice with contextual menu (ctrl click) : ok
13) creating new voice with contextual menu (ctrl click) : does nothing
14) "insert" with contextual menu (ctrl click) : deletes the last voice of bank !!!
15) creating a new SY77 Bulk Dump SYX file : a new window opens with only a line of text "TG77 Internal Memory Sysex File"
16) quit

Next try on another computer, keep you informed. But I need to concentrate on my musical work now! (I quit working in programming computers professionally 20 years ago... I was an UNIX specialist...)

Regards,

Henri

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Re: sy.factory Problems

Unread post by Derek » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:26 pm

I'll Go through each of these when I get time.

Just a couple of quick observations on some items

5) and 15) Have you set up the bulk dump items that you want in the sy.factory MIDI preferences window? This dictates what is created in a SYSEX file as well. I'll accept this is a little non-intuitive and catches some people out. I need to find a better way of doing this when I get time.
11) The only restriction is that if you have a 4 element voice in the clipboard then that can only be pasted in Bank D, which is an SY/TG restriction
14) Expected behaviour. If you are inserting a voice, then something has to drop off the edge as the voice bank size is fixed. Likewise, if you delete a voice then a new one is created at the last voice position to maintain the correct number of voices
16) Well at least that works. ;)
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Re: sy.factory Problems

Unread post by Derek » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:44 am

Hi, Henri

Spent a few hours on this this morning

My setup is OS X 10.12.4. Note I have been developing on OS X since Lion, and have never detected an issue down to OS, and in the distant past (when I developed on PC), I loaned a MAC off of JIMA to test compatibility - this was about 2007/2008, and it was whilst I had this lovely computer in my house that I decided my next computer would be a MAC!

Latest version of sy.factory.

I was on Java 1.8.0_111 (as it is a little while since I have done any serious work on these - most of my time in the past four months has been spent decoding the Korg Kronos PCG file format ready for kronos.factory), so tested on this first before updating to 1.8.0_131 and then repeated the tests.

MIDI interface is a class compliant Focusrite 2i4 USB interface.

Comments on your first set of reports

--------------------

Here is a detailed report of a some testing:
OS 10.11.6
Midi interface : ELEKTRON tm1

First test:
#1 starting sy.factory with terminal : ok

[Derek] Check.

#2 opening a syx file downloaded from the web (baryon.syx) : ok

[Derek] Check - I don't have this file, so used 20th-AV.SYX.

#3 creating a new .syx file : ok

[Derek] Check - presume a TG77 BUlk Dump.

#4 Tile horizontal : ok (but only works if you ask twice...)

[Derek] Works as expected the first time.

#5 Redimensioning the 2 windows : ok

[Derek] Check.

#6 Selecting first voice of baryon.syx : highlighted ok

[Derek] Check.

#7 Copying by selecting the "copy" icon : nothing happens, but I assume it goes to the clipboard

[Derek] Check - Yes, cut/copy and paste are standard clipboard functions. Same behaviour as in other applications. E.g. MS Word works the same.

#8 Selecting the first voice in the new .syx file : highlighted ok, but the previously selected voice in first window stays highlighted, maybe normal to indicate the previously copied voice but a bit odd...

[Derek] This is a Java issue I will need to look into if it really bothers you.

#9 The clipboard icon stays grayed out... And past command also...

[Derek] Not clear what clipboard icon you are referring to which is staying greyed out. Cut and Copy should always be enabled on objects that support them. Paste is disabled until you have something on the clipboard AND the paste target is valid - e.g. you cannot paste a voice onto a voice branch, and as mentioned, a four element voice can only be pasted in BANK D. Note as well, as the clipboard code is based on the drag and drop code, paste is greyed out when you are still on the same object selection as is on the clipboard. If you move to a different object then paste should become available (and it makes no sense to paste a voice onto itself).

#10 Selecting the second voice in baryon.syx : highlighted ok

[Derek] Check.

#11 Copying with ctrl click : ok

[Derek] Check - presume you mean drag and drop copy?

#12 Selecting & pasting to the second window : not working

[Derek] Works here, I'll post a screenshot later.

#13 Behavior now totally erratic...

[Derek] Cannot get erratic behaviour, but what do you mean by this? The only issue I have noticed that I have not seen before is that I sometimes lose the right context menu (everything else still works), which I will need to dig into.

#14 stop test & quit

[Derek] Check.

Second test:
#1 starting sy.factory with terminal : ok

[Derek] Check.

#2 opening a syx file downloaded from the web (baryon.syx) : ok

[Derek] Check - I am using a different SYSEX flle, but that should not make a difference. I cannot attach data files to this post, but if you PM me your email address, I will send you the SYSEX file I am using.

#3 creating a new .syx file : ok

[Derek] Check.

#4 Tiles vertically : ok (works better than the horizontal version : no redimensionning needed)

[Derek] Both work equally well for me.

#5 Expanding the voices list in new file : ok

[Derek] Check.

#6 Selecting and copying first voice in baryon.syx with control-click: rolling ball accompanying the mouse cursor does not stop, clipboard icon stays gray

[Derek] I am not getting this behaviour.

#7 trying to drag & drop a voice from first to second window : ok!
[Derek] Good!

#8 trying gain with another voice : not working,nothing happens

[Derek] Have tried multiple DnD operations and they all work fine.

#9 trying gain with another voice : not working,nothing happens

[Derek] Have tried multiple DnD operations and they all work fine.

#10 stop test & quit

[Derek] Check.

When I have the time I will try on another computer...

[Derek] Will be interested in this.
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Derek Cook

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Re: sy.factory Problems

Unread post by Derek » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:03 am

And your second report......

#1 Installing Java RE update 131

[Derek] Check.

#2 Running the java test in safari : ok

[Derek] Check.

#3 Downloading & reinstalling sy.factory : ok

[Derek] Check.

#4 Running sy.factory and checking communication with TG77 : ok

[Derek] Check.

#5 Creating a new TG77 Bulk Dump SYX file : a new window opens with only a line of text "TG77 Internal Memory Sysex File"

[Derek] Have you set up the bulk dump items that you want in the sy.factory MIDI preferences window? This dictates what is created in a SYSEX file as well. I'll accept this is a little non-intuitive and catches some people out.

I need to find a better way of doing this when I get time. I did it this way, as I did not want SYSEX files to automatically contain everything, but to just contain what I usually dump to and from the TG77. What is really needed is a dialog to select the contents of a SYSEX file. The issue here is that whereas things like JNN and TNN files have a fixed format, a SYSEX file is just a dump of SYSEX data, so can contain anything.


#6 Trying to change view (table, tree) : nothing happens

[Derek] Cannot replicate this.

#7 Trying to import voices from TG77 : nothing happens

[Derek] Works fine. I will post a screenshot later.

#8 Closing the window : ok

[Derek] Check.

#9 Opening an external SY77 file : ok, new windows open with tree view

[Derek] Check.

#10 Selecting & copying the first voice : ok (clipboard icon activated)

[Derek] Check.

#11 Pasting : only working on a voice with same structure ( Is that the way it is supposed to work? A bit odd...)

[Derek] See previous comments, you should be able to paste over any voice, other than 4 element voices in Bank D cannot be pasted to banks A-C - this is an SY77 structure restriction as less memory is allocated for voices in banks A-C than D; this was back in the day when memory was not cheap.

#12 deleting last voice with contextual menu (ctrl click) : ok

[Derek] Check.

#13 creating new voice with contextual menu (ctrl click) : does nothing

[Derek] Cannot replicate this - it works fine here.

#14 "insert" with contextual menu (ctrl click) : deletes the last voice of bank !!!

[Derek] Expected behaviour. Considering voices as an example, the SY77 has a fixed voice quantity of 64. So if you insert a voice, you cannot have 65 voices, so the last voice HAS to be deleted.

#15 creating a new SY77 Bulk Dump SYX file : a new window opens with only a line of text "TG77 Internal Memory Sysex File"

[Derek] See response to #5.

#16 quit

[Derek] Check.

So, this morning, I dragged my gig rack out of music room (all PC based) to locate it next to my MAC, and I checked the import from my TG77 several times, and it is all working fine. See the following.

Image

And the next shot is two files open, tiled with split windows to show trees and tables, this was the setup when I was testing copy and paste and drag and drop.

Image

In conclusion, in the three hours I have been looking at this this morning, I cannot replicate any of the issues that you have reported, so will need more to go on to look at it further.

As an observation, I have around 500 users of my applications, and all of the librarians are based on a common framework which has been in existence since 2001 when I first developed ex.factory, including key areas such as window management, drag and drop, copy and paste, so if the code was shoddy/erratic in these areas, then I would have a lot of complaints, which I don't. Bugs do get reported of course, and I will always do my best to fix them (in amongst everything else that I do), I have also added a fair number of features at the request of users.

I am not saying the above to say that what you are experiencing is not frustrating, nor am I trying to dismiss it, but as this is a public post, I do feel the need to say that this appears to be an isolated problem (unless many other potential users have the same problems, give up and never report it).

I am happy to work with you further to resolve your problems if we can isolate the cause of the problem, and if we can get a sequence that I can replicate here, than I am more than happy to fix it if I can.
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Derek Cook

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Re: sy.factory Problems

Unread post by Merkur » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:41 am

Hi Derek,

First thanks for your patience and the time you are spending trying to solve this!
When I see your screenshots and read your comments my conclusion is that there must be an issue with my configuration/system then...

I tried on 2 others MacBooks but unfortunately on both the system was too old and only allowed Java 6.

I will install a clean new OS on a clean disk and hopefully everything will work!

I'll keep you informed.

Regards,

Henri

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Re: sy.factory Problems

Unread post by Derek » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:56 pm

Hi, Henri

If you download the archived version of sy.factory (link given in an earlier post) and install MMJ, then you could try that copy of sy.factory on the older computers to try it out. Functionality wise the archive version has about 96% of the features of the new version (WaveBlade support being the major addition), and it used a different licensing system.

I just remembered that earlier in the year (it's been a long year!), another user on OS X (10.11.6) had some bugs to report, but also mentioned a UI problem in that OPTION-N did not open the NEW FILE Dialog, he also had problems importing and exporting to/from an SY99, and the splash screen would not close after the application opened. I managed to fix the bugs, but we never got to the bottom of those UI problems other than the user advised that " Using the latest Java 8 and testing on a virgin clean, fully updated El Capitan 10.11.6 helped a lot".

I'll email that user and point him to this thread, just to see if he has anything to add.

What was strange is that sy.factory Version 3.9 seemed to work fine for him. What I can do is dig that version out of my configuration management and provide a link to it for you. I'd be interested to see if that works any better for you.

The main differences between 3.9 and 3.11 is that in 3.10 CoreMIDI4J is embedded directly in the application and WaveBlade support was vastly improved in 3.11. I find it hard to believe that either of those would cause massive stability problems on some systems, but....
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