Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

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Outof
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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by Outof » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:15 pm

SeaGtGruff wrote:
Outof wrote:Thank you. Regarding the manuals they are all downloadable from Yamahas Website at this address (in English):
http://download.yamaha.com/search/resul ... &search=w5
Huh! Thank you, I've just downloaded them and will take a look. Funny thing, if I change the search from "w5" to "w7"-- which is what I'd searched for last night-- the English versions aren't listed, just the French, German, and Spanish ones! 8O :roll:
Yes, I know. Really strange. Actually I had this Yamaha W5 in the 90's, but also sold it in the 90's and bought its successor EX5. But I have many time missed it, so now I have kind of "bought it back" because I wanted some nostalgia into my studio. I have a W7 instead though, but "same" thing.. :-) It is just so cumbersome to rise up for every voicechange or physically navigate around it.

Anyway, if you could get something out of it, I'd be more than happy... I have still not solved the key... :-(

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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by Outof » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:18 pm

SeaGtGruff wrote:
Outof wrote:Thank you. Regarding the manuals they are all downloadable from Yamahas Website at this address (in English):
http://download.yamaha.com/search/resul ... &search=w5
Huh! Thank you, I've just downloaded them and will take a look. Funny thing, if I change the search from "w5" to "w7"-- which is what I'd searched for last night-- the English versions aren't listed, just the French, German, and Spanish ones! 8O :roll:
Yes I know, I noticed that too, strange... :-) In fact I had this Yamaha W5 from the 90's, but sold it when I bought its successor EX5. But I have so often missed it, that I recently "bought it back", just for adding som nostalgia in my studio. I have now the W7 though, but still the same fun as I remembered it from the past.

Anyway, if you could get anything out of it, I's be more than happy. I have still not solved the "mysteria".. :-(

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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by Sonus » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:22 am

Image
W7v2 "System Upgrade Information Guide" p.33

The bank select MSB-LSB messages should always be followed by a program change message.

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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by Outof » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:44 am

SeaGtGruff wrote:
Outof wrote:Thank you. Regarding the manuals they are all downloadable from Yamahas Website at this address (in English):
http://download.yamaha.com/search/resul ... &search=w5
Huh! Thank you, I've just downloaded them and will take a look. Funny thing, if I change the search from "w5" to "w7"-- which is what I'd searched for last night-- the English versions aren't listed, just the French, German, and Spanish ones! 8O :roll:
Yes, really strange. I experienced the same thing too. I actually had this Yamaha W5 back in the 90's, but sold it when its successor EX5 was released. I have so many times missed it, so I recently "bought it back" to bring some nostalgia into the studio. I have now a W7 though, but still fun to use, but it is so cumbersome to rise up for changing voices everytime or when navigating around.

Anyway, if you get something out of it, I would be more than happy to hear. I have still not solved this "mysteria".. :-(

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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by SeaGtGruff » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:32 am

The correct order of the messages is (1) Bank Select MSB, followed by (2) Bank Select LSB, followed by (3) Program Change. I'm not sure whether you'll need to wait a few ticks between each message to give the synth a moment to process each one, but it certainly wouldn't hurt. The real trick, though, will be figuring out what/where/how to do it in Logic Pro!
Michael Rideout
Yamaha PSR-E433, PSR-E443, YPT-400

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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by SysExJohn » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:28 am

C'mon guys,

This ain't rocket science. :lol: :wink:
Hurry along to chapter 15 of the Logic manual "Advanced Edit Features".
Make sure that the two headings "Controllers" and "Progr. Change" are the ones highlighted.
Now scoot down to the section describing how to edit or create events.
Create a controller event of type 0 then enter the MSB.
A tick or two later enter a controller event of 32 and enter the LSB.
Then enter, a tick or so later, the Program Change you want. (Remember MIDI Program 1 is actually 00H.)
(It usually doesn't matter too much the order of the MSB/LSB, but the Prog.Chng. must be last.)

30 seconds later it's all working. <->

TSk. Simples! 8)
JohnG.
MIDI Tutor forum at http://midi-tutor.proboards.com/index.cgi.
UW500; 2xMU1000 + PLGs AN, DX, VL, VH & PF; SC8850; EWI4000s + VL70m; Samson Graphite 49.
AN1x, Novation X-Station 25. E-MU 02 cardbus + 1616m x 2. Sonar 7 PE. XGworks ST. & SQ01.
Garritan GPO4, COMB2, JABB3, IO, Organs, Steinway, World, Harps + GPO5.

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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by parametric » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:18 pm

Nice one John . .

(Good to see you back)

para
Alesis Fusion 8SSD AND 6SSD - BOTH are 384Mb/120Gb SSD/Akai ADVANCE61/Yamaha MOXF6/1024Mb Flash Ram/Yamaha SY85/8.5mb vol/1024k non-vol/DX21/Roland MT32/Bachmann double overstrung Baby Grand Piano/Win10 Pro/Ubuntu MATE 15.0.4/iBook G4/Mac OS 10.4.6/ProTools 7.4/MBox2/M-Audio 24/96 Sector101 2x SYEMB06 / 4 x EXM-E3 128MB DRAM Module
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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by jima » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:54 pm

SysExJohn wrote:C'mon guys,

This ain't rocket science. :lol: :wink:
Hurry along to chapter 15 of the Logic manual "Advanced Edit Features".
Make sure that the two headings "Controllers" and "Progr. Change" are the ones highlighted.
Now scoot down to the section describing how to edit or create events.
Create a controller event of type 0 then enter the MSB.
A tick or two later enter a controller event of 32 and enter the LSB.
Then enter, a tick or so later, the Program Change you want. (Remember MIDI Program 1 is actually 00H.)
(It usually doesn't matter too much the order of the MSB/LSB, but the Prog.Chng. must be last.)

30 seconds later it's all working. <->

TSk. Simples! 8)
JohnG.
What I said.... :)
Jim
Loves keyboards but so little time :(

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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by SeaGtGruff » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:39 pm

Me cries laziness, too much other busy-ness to study the manuals in depth, and lack-ness of a Mac and Logic Pro.

Also, my cat clawed my homework to shreds, and my dog ate what was left of it!
Michael Rideout
Yamaha PSR-E433, PSR-E443, YPT-400

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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by SysExJohn » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:28 am

You did Jim,

Michael, you've never experienced lazy 'til you've seen me.
Open the pdf manual, go down the headings list, see 'Advanced Edit Features' (for some reason List View is always in the 'advanced' section, dunno why),
look in there and scan down it quickly, picking up the salient features. See the controller list in a picture. There we are. Job done.
(But then I have been MIDIing getting on for thirty years now.)

In a past life I used to do protocol analysis on ISDN D channel interfaces, when the various telco's (EU and US) were just beginning to implement it.
Take a look, if you're interested, at this brief :wink: synopsis http://www.ciscopress.com/articles/arti ... 7&seqNum=3.
Or, better still, don't.

John.
MIDI Tutor forum at http://midi-tutor.proboards.com/index.cgi.
UW500; 2xMU1000 + PLGs AN, DX, VL, VH & PF; SC8850; EWI4000s + VL70m; Samson Graphite 49.
AN1x, Novation X-Station 25. E-MU 02 cardbus + 1616m x 2. Sonar 7 PE. XGworks ST. & SQ01.
Garritan GPO4, COMB2, JABB3, IO, Organs, Steinway, World, Harps + GPO5.

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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by Outof » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:28 pm

SysExJohn wrote:C'mon guys,

This ain't rocket science. :lol: :wink:
Hurry along to chapter 15 of the Logic manual "Advanced Edit Features".
Make sure that the two headings "Controllers" and "Progr. Change" are the ones highlighted.
Now scoot down to the section describing how to edit or create events.
Create a controller event of type 0 then enter the MSB.
A tick or two later enter a controller event of 32 and enter the LSB.
Then enter, a tick or so later, the Program Change you want. (Remember MIDI Program 1 is actually 00H.)
(It usually doesn't matter too much the order of the MSB/LSB, but the Prog.Chng. must be last.)

30 seconds later it's all working. <->

TSk. Simples! 8)
JohnG.
Funny, but it is not really that easy for me. But, this time I have not given it a try yet, so I really hope I can laugh at this thread in the future. On thing I am wondering about though, how do I make tick or two? What is a tick? Empty controller information. Thank you for the info by the way...

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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by parametric » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:52 pm

Hi Outof,

ticks are basically the midi "time" in a data sense . . .

If you look at the "event list" for a track of your song, you'll see the various events have a TIME associated with them.

MIDI is a serial system so events happen in order.

THEORETICALLY - a "Chord" isn't possible - as you can only have ONE event per timecode (tick) - so a "chord" is infact a VERY FAST arpeggio . . .

but the effect, is a chord.

You sequencer will be running at a "resolution" (which you can define/change in the settings) typically 480 tick per 1/4 note (but may be different in YOUR setup)

The point being made with the SySex commands being discussed here, is that they should PRECEDE the regular midi data for the track.

So the SETUP stuff is "out of the way" BEFORE the track starts . . . .

MIDI's data rate is very high @ 31250 bits per second - so there is PLENTY of capacity for the SySex to be sent and read.

Basically, its good practice to separate commands by a few ticks just so as not to trip the system up with data overload.

This also helps the various devices to respond to the commands being sent BEFORE the main Music-Making begins IYSWIM?

Hope that helps (My Midi is a bit rusty too, but I think the above is basically correct (Y) )

parametric
Alesis Fusion 8SSD AND 6SSD - BOTH are 384Mb/120Gb SSD/Akai ADVANCE61/Yamaha MOXF6/1024Mb Flash Ram/Yamaha SY85/8.5mb vol/1024k non-vol/DX21/Roland MT32/Bachmann double overstrung Baby Grand Piano/Win10 Pro/Ubuntu MATE 15.0.4/iBook G4/Mac OS 10.4.6/ProTools 7.4/MBox2/M-Audio 24/96 Sector101 2x SYEMB06 / 4 x EXM-E3 128MB DRAM Module
BRAND NEW DSDD (720k) FLOPPY DISKS FOR SALE - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=9217

Watch out now! take care, BEWARE of the greedy leaders! They'll take you where you should not go - (George Harrison)

IT'S TRUE - "MONEY TALKS" - TO ME, IT MOSTLY SAYS "GOODBYE" ;-)
http://www.chrisnmiller.co.uk/Chris

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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by SeaGtGruff » Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:28 am

Looks good to me!

As far as how to "make" a tick in a DAW, the events are usually displayed with the MIDI times ("delta times" since they indicate the amount of time to wait from one event to the next) conveniently converted into bars-beats-ticks notation. For instance, if a DAW says that an event occurs at time 5.3.240, that would mean bar (or measure) 5, beat 3, tick 240. So if the song setup specifies 480 PPQN (pulses or ticks per quarter note), 240 ticks would be halfway through the 3rd beat.

Anyway, when you're adding MIDI events in the DAW using the event list view, you just indicate which bar, beat, and tick you want an event to occur at. So if you had one event that occurs at 1.1.0 (at the very beginning of the song, or 0 ticks into the 1st beat of the 1st bar), and you want the next event to occur 5 ticks later, you would give it a time of 1.1.5 (5 ticks into the 1st beat of the 1st bar).
Michael Rideout
Yamaha PSR-E433, PSR-E443, YPT-400

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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by Outof » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:36 am

SeaGtGruff wrote:Looks good to me!

As far as how to "make" a tick in a DAW, the events are usually displayed with the MIDI times ("delta times" since they indicate the amount of time to wait from one event to the next) conveniently converted into bars-beats-ticks notation. For instance, if a DAW says that an event occurs at time 5.3.240, that would mean bar (or measure) 5, beat 3, tick 240. So if the song setup specifies 480 PPQN (pulses or ticks per quarter note), 240 ticks would be halfway through the 3rd beat.

Anyway, when you're adding MIDI events in the DAW using the event list view, you just indicate which bar, beat, and tick you want an event to occur at. So if you had one event that occurs at 1.1.0 (at the very beginning of the song, or 0 ticks into the 1st beat of the 1st bar), and you want the next event to occur 5 ticks later, you would give it a time of 1.1.5 (5 ticks into the 1st beat of the 1st bar).
Thanks... This was very clarifying.. (even though all contributions are highly appreciated)... :)

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Re: Midi message for changing bank - and some frustration

Unread post by SysExJohn » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:23 am

Sorry peeps!

Just to be precise about ticks (and I already know that I'm an old pedant), but strictly speaking ticks get converted into delta times when incorporated into a MIDI file.

Ticks are not measured in a conventional time as we know it, i.e. hours minutes and seconds, but as a subdivision of a quarter note.

So 'ticks', or more correctly 'PPQN' (pulses per quarter note) usually referred to as TPQN (ticks PQN) are a way of displaying a subdivision of a quarter note.
Usually these are displayed as three fields 'Measure', 'Beat' and 'Tick'. The first two should be obvious but the last has increased in size as processors have become faster.
In the Olde Dayse (Atari 520 and such like) we got about 96 ticks per quarter note, these days it's not uncommon to see 960 TPQN.

These displayed values are then converted into a delta time which is inserted between the notes in the MIDI file so that the play back mechanism knowns how long to wait between each successive MIDI event. So a delta time is the time between one MIDI event and the next.
Delta times can alter depending upon the tempo and time signature and are measured in microseconds (I think!)

John, in Logic, I believe, the song position they come under the heading 'Position'.

So Chris (Parametric) is quite right,
MIDI transmission data rate is 31250 bits per second, the bits are sent as bytes which have a start and stop bit at either end, so end up as ten bits.
The 'standard' MIDI message is three bytes long (keeping it simple) so takes about a millisecond to transmit.
As the interface runs asynchronously, it can be sent as soon as it's been created, so a three note chord (as the interface is also serial) could take three thousands of a second to transmit.

............Hang on! This is getting WAY too technical. :roll: :wink: :!:

Yeah! I know. Splitting hairs. :? :lol:

JohnG
aka SysexJohn.

P.S. There's a good synopsis of it all on page 12 of the MIDI file spec. within the complete MIDI spec. from the MMA.
OutOf, in part 8 of my MIDI Basics tutorials on my forum there's quite a detailed break down of what may go into the setup measure of a MIDI file.
Last edited by SysExJohn on Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:19 am, edited 4 times in total.
MIDI Tutor forum at http://midi-tutor.proboards.com/index.cgi.
UW500; 2xMU1000 + PLGs AN, DX, VL, VH & PF; SC8850; EWI4000s + VL70m; Samson Graphite 49.
AN1x, Novation X-Station 25. E-MU 02 cardbus + 1616m x 2. Sonar 7 PE. XGworks ST. & SQ01.
Garritan GPO4, COMB2, JABB3, IO, Organs, Steinway, World, Harps + GPO5.

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